u On What Values Was the American Republic Founded?

u What Are the "Pro-life" Leaders Denying?

u What Are the Christian Values?

u What Values Are the Pro-choice People Endorsing?

u What Role Models Did Our Founding Fathers Copy ?

u Precedence Versus Common Sense

u What Are the Anti-abortionists Endorsing ?

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The fundamentalist Christian anti-abortionists frequently make false accusations about the character and the intent of those of us who resist their attempt to create a  Christian theocracy in America.^°    They commonly say:

The Founding Fathers established this country on Christian values and you are denying those values.   You are denying our Christian heritage.

This assertion simply doesn't stand up against the overwhelming evidence that counters it.  First, be aware that the above claim follows the typical Christian logic of declaring a partial truth to be the complete truth.^°    The creators of the American Republic based their creation of Universal Spiritual Values^°  which includes "the basic Christian Values" ^°  but definitely not limited to Christian Values, and they certainly did not base the Republic  upon the type of Christian values that are being practiced today by the anti-choice leaders.^° 

For some direct quotations of George Washington,  Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc., see the page titled:  Christianity and Our Founding Fathers.^°  

Second, the present-day, anti-choice Christians are implying that our Founding Fathers considered  "Christian values"  to be the same thing that  the fundamentalist Christian anti-abortionists are presently peddling under the guise of Christianity.    Anti-abortionist  behavior^°   is  anything but Christ-like,^°  but that's another story^°  for another time.

Third, let's be clear about the meaning of the words,  "values"  and "heritage."   A value is something important that one would want to keep and/or duplicate.   Webster's dictionary defines values as:  "The social principles, goals, or standards held or accepted by an individual, class, society, etc."

Heritage is something handed down from the past.   One could also associate "heritage" with such words  as  "a custom, legacy, tradition, habit, convention, belief, practice, routine, ritual."

Readers are invited to look at what the Christian leaders  considered to be basic values and at the legacy of Christian behavior that was available at that time our Founding Father created the American Republic.   We need to clearly distinguish between what the Christians preach and what they practice because there was, and still is, a vast difference.   Let's see if we can figure out  what Washington, Madison, Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers had in mind^°  when they established the Republic called The United States of America:

The Cesspool of Christian Criminal Behavior:

Christian behavior, attitudes, actions, and practices include a 2000-year-long, bloody legacy of intolerance,  intimidation and harassment, intentional deception,  lies of omission,  political and sexual repression,  heterosexual and homosexual hypocrisy,  religious and racial bigotry,  political tyranny and subjugation,  violence, vandalism, arson, and murder.

And if that’s not enough, many of them claim that their leader is infallible; they claim exclusive access to god; and they base their entire anti—abortion campaign on an absolutely unprovable, Medieval fairytale about God doing a conception magic act.

Here are some of the better-known examples:

It would require a moron or a mindless sheep to accept the above cesspool of demonic mouthfart as the values or behavior patterns our Founding Fathers would choose to use as role models for creating the American Republic.

 The pro-life leaders are denying all of the above behaviors, attitudes, actions, and practices mentioned on the above list in The Cesspool of Christian Criminal Behavior.   They also ignore the fact that the basic, core, Christian values (such as don't murder or steal) are universal values and not the exclusive property of Christianity.   A good example of this is the Golden Rule.^° 

 Isn't the basic definition of a Christian, "One who live his or her life in a Christ-like manner?"  Which of the above behaviors are Christ-like?   Do any of the above behaviors, attitudes, actions, and practices follow the Biblical guidelines^°  below?

u "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you."   

u "Judge not lest you be judged."

u "As you sow, so shall you reap. "

u "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the left."

u "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

u "Love your neighbor as yourself."

u "By their fruits, you shall know them."

u "Be wary of wolves in sheep's  clothing."

u "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; 
        and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of 
        thy brother's eye."

u “Know the truth and the truth will set you free.” 

u “I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is]
        nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing
        to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.”

And here's one passage you should pay particular attention to:

u “And whoever shall cause one . . . who believes in me to
       stumble, it is better for him that an ass’s millstone were
        hanged on his neck, and that he were thrown into 
        the sea.”

I cannot speak for other pro-choice groups so I'll confine the values below to the Pro-Truth Team.   Here are a few examples:   That's not to say we are perfect or are able to practice them at all times.   They are our ideals.

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 Certainly not the Christian heritage of  behaviors, attitudes, actions, and practices listed above in The Cesspool of Christian Criminal Behavior..   Most likely they examined those Christian behavior patterns and said,  "What values are the opposites of these?.   How can we avoid that kind of behavior in the future?"

Compelling evidence. indicates that our founding fathers  were generally Deists or Universalists, believing in some form of impersonal Providence, and that they strongly rejected what the present day fundamentalists call "The Christian Religion."

The evidence indicates that preventing the blending of church and state was very high on their priority list, as was honoring every religious pathway to God.   They did not attempt to exclude God from the government, but rather to embrace our spiritual nature and protect everyone’s religious rights.   (See the paragraph below.)    Their goal was to make sure everyone had the right to  honor our Divine Source in any fashion they chose.   And the best way to do that appeared to be, and still appears to be, keeping the activities of church and state as separate as possible.

The Religious/spiritual Background of our Founding Fathers:

The Founding Fathers, although they may have been raised by Christian parents, as adults, many were also Masons..    Here's a brief description of the character traits of a Mason.   (Quote is direct for the website: <http://www.helionlodge.org/page_aboutmasonry.htm>.     

 .Mason.                   .Mason .         ...

A Personal Experience:   
When is  "precedence"  following in the footsteps of someone older and wiser, and when is it simply sheep behavior?   Remember back to when you were a child, and you did something really stupid to get yourself  into trouble with your parents.   Remember saying to them something to the effect that:  
"I only did it because ______ did it."   And your parents responded with a statement like:   "If _____ jumped off the ______ bridge, would you do it too?"

Choose or Lose:   
Regardless of what our ancestors thought or intended, it just might be time for us to take responsibility for our own creations.   You can argue all day over such things as what Jefferson meant by the phrase, "wall of separation between Church and State,"  and you still must accept the responsibility to decide what to do right here, right now with regard to the relationship between church and state.   

To spend hours trying to figure out what our Founding Fathers meant is an exercise in futile gesturing..   It's like the two characters in this old limerick:  "A gay young man from Cartoom invited a lesbian up to his room,  but instead of delight they argued all night over who had the right to do what and with which and to whom."

What Makes Sense in Our Present Society?   

Are we brain dead?   Were our Founding Fathers Gods?  Do we have the capacity to think for ourselves?   Do you suppose it's time to simply look back and re-evaluate what has happened in the past.   What worked?  What didn't?   Given the proven dismal track record of religious "true believers" running governments,  what makes sense today?   What is the logical thing to do?

That is, in all probability, what Washington, Jefferson, and the other leaders of that day did.   And we have the advantage of another two and a quarter centuries of history to assist us.    So let's just ask the question:   What Makes Sense in Our Present Society regarding the relationship of church and state?   Here are some possible answers: 

Summary / Recap / Conclusion

We cannot completely separate church and state because our spiritual nature is a fundamental aspect of everything we do, including forming governments.

So the real question is,  ”How do we blend church with state justly, peacefully, and harmoniously and still honor everybody's religious freedoms, including the rights of those who believe that God as represented by Fundamental Christianity is just another fairytale?”   (To reject the Fundamentalist Christian, fairytale version of the Source of All creation does not make one an atheist.)

Some restrictions are necessary because when church and state combine, religious tyranny rules.  If we allow one religion to use public property, we have to allow use by every other religion also.   That’s simply not practical.   

So the most realistic answer is, to as much as possible,  keep religion and government separate.  How do we do that?

1)   By prohibiting any religious faction from dominating secular law,

2)   By prohibiting  any specific religion from becoming the government-
        sanctioned religion.

3)   By prohibiting  any religious factions from using  government property^°  
      to promote their specific religious beliefs.

2)   By prohibiting  any religious factions from using  government money^°  
        to promote their specific religious beliefs.

3)   By prohibiting  any religious factions from using  government laws^°  
        to force their religious practices onto  someone else.

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Please note that, like the American Constitution's Bill of Rights, the above suggestions represent restrictions on the powers of government.   They don't grant anything.   Governments do not and cannot grant any rights, religious or otherwise.  Religious rights and human rights are are by nature inalienable.   

What are the anti-abortion leaders endorsing?    Well, as far as the values that  the no-choice folks hold, we'll let their actions. answer that.    Visit some of their web sites. and see for yourself.

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Another Truth Challenge that the No-Choice Voice Can't Pass:   

So now that we know what the spiritual values of our Founding Fathers were and where those values came from, tell us please, which of those values are the pro-choice supporters practicing?   

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A comparison of the two sides in this controversy.

Is it the pro-choice side  or the no-choice side that is denying the evidence and engaging in activities that are counter to the two-hundred and thirty-year-old values of our Founding Fathers?

u Who uses, condones, and/or endorses  intentionally offending others
       and denying religious freedom to others?

u Who uses, condones, and/or endorses the use  silent lies (lies of
      omission and omitting the truth)  in order to deceive others?

u Who uses, condones, and/or endorses peddling half-truths as if 
       they were the whole truth,  and who uses, condones, and/or
       endorses the censoring. opposing views?

u Who uses, condones, and/or endorses  distorting the truth,
      practicing intentional deception, and using inflammatory rhetoric?

u Who claims that the Christian Bible is the literal truth of God 
      and then  ignores or distorts several  Biblical passages?

u Who uses, condones, and/or endorses  inciting to riot,  intimidation,
     threats,  harassment, and  invasion of privacy in order to achieve
      their goals?

u Who uses, condones, and/or endorses  assault against persons,
      reputations, and property in order to achieve their goals?

u Who uses, condones, and/or endorses violence and engages in 
      secret criminal behavior?

u Who has,  in courts of law,  been found guilty of vandalism, 
     arson, and murder?

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The founding fathers established this country on Universal Spiritual Values. and not the present-day distorted perceptions of reality being peddled by the anti-abortionists.   It is the anti-choice leaders who are denying Christian values.   It is they who are denying, dishonoring and defiling the Christian heritage.   

Their assertions of moral superiority. are a fraud.   They ought to be ashamed of themselves.

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However, if they chose to,  they could easily resolve this problem.   We direct those interested to our web page titled:  "Is Christianity Threatened by Abortion Rights?".  

An Additional Factor to Consider:

When someone speaks about God, they are referring to that unknown and unknowable source of all that transcends understanding.   Thus, they tell us absolutely nothing about what God actually is.   They are, instead, expressing what they believe about God.    

An Analogy:   Suppose a stranger called you on the phone and in a rather urgent and emotional voice said, "The moment I saw Charlie, I knew Charlie had been bitten by something.   What do I do now?"   You'd probably start by asking who or what Charlie is.   Is Charlie, your husband, your daughter, you dog, your pet fish, or a stuffed toy?   What bit Charlie, a mosquito, a shark or, of the love bug.   You'd probably also ask what were the circumstances under which Charlie was bitten, and what condition is Charlie in right now?

Well, having a discussion about God without defining what you mean by "God"  is about as rational as offering a treatment for Charlie's bite without knowing anything more than,  "Something bit Charlie."

Requirement for a Meaningful Discussion:   To have even a semblance of mutual understanding, one must first define that is meant by the term God.   See the section titled,  Do You Believe in God?. and the section titled,  Spiritual Awareness.°        An Additional Reference.

Second, one must understand that the discussion would be about religious beliefs and  not about that unknown, unknowable, seemingly  infinite "Source of All That Is"  which is commonly referred to as "God."

Third,  nobody has any definitive answers.   Nobody can say, with provable certainty, that he or she is right and that everyone else is wrong.

Fourth,  one would also do well to begin any such discussion by distinguishing between religion and spirituality.   See the page titled,   Religion Versus God..